What happened in New Hampshire? [Updated]

by Migeru
Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:36:07 AM EST

It's funny how things happen sometimes. After the New Hampshire primary last Tuesday there were some suggestions that the Democratic primary might have been tampered with. I have taken part in some discussions of this on and off the blog, and my basic take was that
  1. the implications are important enough for the allegations to be taken seriously;
  2. "taking the allegations seriously" means carrying out some further tests before jumping to conclusions, especially if you're going to call for an official recall like Dennis Kucinich has done!
    My initial suggestion was to compare the actual vote counts by hand vs. by machine against the exit polls, if an exit poll could be found that aggregated the data according to the vote counting method used in the precinct where the voter was interviewed. Of course this variable was not in the published exit polls. In my enthusiasm I imagined someone in the blogosphere knowing someone in one of the companies that do exit polls, so they could try to get the raw data from election night re-analysed. But see below.
  3. if a statistically significant discrepancy between the vote percentages and the exit polls, aggregated separated by vote counting method, were found, one would have to remember that correlation doesn't imply causation. One could imagine socioeconomic variables correlating independently with both the Clinton/Obama swing and the use of voting machines in a precinct. For instance, rural vs. urban precincts, the size of the town, the average income of the town, whether the local government is democrat or republican controlled, etc. All of these plausible explanations would have to be controlled for before one could claim to have evidence of election fraud.

A very interesting discussion, promoted by In Wales - some intro moved below the fold


Given the impossibility of getting my hands on disaggregated exit poll data and the observation that the exit polls matched the election results (but see below), I decided not to give the issue any more thought. That is, I ceased to take it seriously. Update [2008-1-14 14:21:2 by Migeru]: It appears that Zogby has released some of his pre-election poll raw data allowing aggregation on the basis of whether the voter would have their vote counted by hand or machine. However, the same hasn't been done for the exit poll data, that I am aware. Edison or whomever should do as Zogby has done to allow a precint-by-precinct comparison of exit polls (not pre-election polls) and vote counts.

However, supporters of both Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich among other people didn't lay this to rest and started posting fragmentary statistical analyses of actual voting data. These got more and more elaborate until, earlier today, Drew, who had nagging suspicions and so had been tracking what the blogosphere was saying about this issue, pointed me to a couple of websites that changed my mind, because they contain serious statistical analysis of the kind I suggest in 3) above, albeit performed only on the election data, not on exit polls. But that is actuallyprobably better as I'll also discuss belowit appears exit polls are normalised to match the actual results because their purpose is not to predict results, but to try to show how various socioeconomic variables correlate with vote patterns.

Now I think there is a high likelihood that the vote counts for Obama and Clinton were exchanged by Diebold voting machines. Update [2008-1-14 14:21:2 by Migeru]: However, I have tried to replicate the statistical results detailed below and I have not been able to (see the comments for details), which casts some doubt on the "smoking guns" for fraud. The correlation between Clinton/Obama vote swing and vote counting method is robust, but referring back to the intro, in point 3) I stressed the need for socioeconomic correlations to be studied and this hasn't happened yet - the same point was made by Continuation in the blog post I linked to below. Point 2) seems to be well established, but with the "smoking gun" gone, the likelihood of fraud goes down a notch.

The first indication that something might be amiss came in this comment by ThatBritGuy:

From a comment by "soros" at the big orange monster:
Then there is this other indication from the Election Defense Alliance

Thursday 1/10: Bruce O'Dell writes:

Theron Horton and I have confirmed that based on the official results on the New Hampshire Secretary of State web site, there is a remarkable relationship between Obama and Clinton votes, when you look at votes tabulated by op-scan versus votes tabulated by hand:

Clinton Optical scan 91,717 52.95%
Obama Optical scan 81,495 47.05%

Clinton Hand-counted 20,889 47.05%
Obama Hand-counted 23,509 52.95%

The percentages appear to be swapped. This seems highly unusual.

The coincidence is even more suspicious than it appears as the percentages match to 5 decimal places, as was discovered by a commenter on Brad Blog
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
... TruthIsAll said on 1/10/2008 @ 10:14 pm PT...

Brad, the coincidence is even greater than that. The numbers match to within .0001% !

Optical Scan
Clinton 91,717 52.9507%
Obama 81,495 47.0493%
Total 173,212

Hand Counted
Clinton 20,889 47.0494%
Obama 23,509 52.9506%
Total 44,398

Let's do a back of the envelope calculation... Let's take the percentages "measured" from the optical scan ballots. Suppose you have a biased coin with a head on each side, Clinton or Obama, and with a 52.9507% probability of coming up Clinton and a 47.0493% probability of coming up Obama. Now take the total number of hand-counted votes. Toss that coin 44,398 times. What do you expect? Well, the expected number of Clintons is 44,398 * 0.529507 = 23509.1 which is exactly as observed for Obama, and the expected number of Obamas is 20888.9 which is also exactly as observed for Clinton. Now, the expected variance of a coin toss will be 0.529507 * 0.470493 = 0.249129, so the expected variance of 44,398 coin tosses is 11060.8 and the standard deviation is the square root of that, or 105.2 so you would expect the observed vote counts to deviate from the expected ones by about 100 votes in either direction. The fact that they match to within 1 vote means that the match is too good to be true. We're talking as unlikely as a 3-sigma deviation. If you're a teaching assistant and a student turns in a lab report with data of this quality you suspect them of doctoring their data to match the textbook answer and call them to your office for cross-examination.

So, these data contain not one but two red flags. The first is that the vote percentages are exchanged, and the second, more subtle red flag, is that the vote counts are too god to be true.

Update [2008-1-15 13:23:36 by Migeru]: This is all well and good, but Drew and I downloaded the official (but provisional) vote counts and the list of precincts using optical-scan machines from the New Hampshire Secretary of State website and were not able to duplicate this uncanny coincidence. Kudos to the stormy present who, in the comments, noted a 3-4 vote discrepancy in the vote totals between the Secretary of State's county summaries and the EDA numbers quoted above. The Election Defense Alliance has subsequently issued a correction:

EDA has subsequently learned that the list of hand-count voting districts in New Hampshire that it used in its initial analysis on January 10, 2008 was outdated; shortly after that list was downloaded a revised list was published by the New Hampshire Secretary of State with fourteen hand-count precincts converted to Diebold optical scan.

Now for the couple of links that I got from Drew that convinced me that something really is amiss by addressing my suggested tests in point 3) above the fold.

The first one is from "Brian" at Black Box Voting:

I wanted to do a quick statistical analysis of the results. This is far from complete, but the results thus far do not contradict our initial suspicions.

First a very basic statistics primer. We assume that our samples are subject to "noise" (random variation). Obviously the percent vote counts are not going to be the same in every precinct, so when we see what we think is a trend (like Obama doing better in hand-counted precincts) we ask, "what is the probability (p) of this apparent trend arising by chance?" If the probability is less than 5% (p < 0.05) we say that the result is "statistically significant."

Ok, now the results.

First I ran a chi-squared contingency table tests with Yates correction. for both the democrat and republican results.

...

Thus we can say with a high degree of certainty that there is a relationship between the counting method and the election results. The probability of the aforementioned discrepancies occurring by chance is less than 1 in 100 billion.

This does not mean however that counting method causes different voting percentages, just that they are correlated. It could be that something else (e.g., size of town) causes both. As a quick control I did the same chi-squared analysis, but looking at just whether people voted democrat or republican. Below, the columns are machine counted, hand counted and the rows are republican, democrat.

...

That is, while the machine counted precincts tended to vote slightly more republican (54.9% vs. 54.6%) this result was not significant (p > 0.05).

If one was cheating by vote substitution one would not want to change republican ballots to democratic or vice versa for obvious reasons. It is interesting that the machine/hand counted precincts have such different results within each election, but are almost identical between the two elections.

The next question is whether other factors can explain the discrepancy. This is very much a work in progress. Preliminary results indicate that neither Obama's nor Clinton's percentages have a significant correlation with precinct size. They both fit a line with slope zero. This would suggest (very preliminary) that the trend of smaller precincts tending to use hand counts cannot explain the discrepancy.

But the one that really blew my socks off was this other one from the blog Continuation:
Some people offered the explanation that smaller precincts tend not to use Diebold machines and also tend to favor Obama, for whatever sociological reasons. As someone put the election data in computer-readable format on the web, and as I am slightly versed in statistical analysis using the R package, I decided to run some tests.

...

In hand-counted precincts, which make up 20.2% of the votes, Obama gets 38.6% and Clinton gets 34.9%. In Diebold-counted ones, Clinton makes 39.6% and Obama gets 36.3%. This is the basis for the initial claims of vote rigging.

Claims which are countered by the observation that precincts where the votes are hand-counted are small, non-urban precincts. Urbanity is, of course, a well-known factor affecting political choices.

...

Actually there is a very significant correlation at p < 0.002 between Clinton's score and the precinct size, and an even better correlation between Clinton's score and voting method, and yet a better correlation between precinct size and voting method.

We cannot say much more without going to multivariate statistics. Fortunately, thanks to GNU R, mere mortals can benefit from multi-variate statistical modeling.

...

These cryptic lines mean that Hillary's score can be computed by 38.59% plus the Democratic size divided by 384911.5 (which is 1/2.598e-6) minus 4.64 percentage points whenever the voting method is by hand.

So it is estimated that voting method accounts for 4.64 percentage points of Hillary's score.

How much variability does this linear formula remove from the data? The standard deviation (on a precinct by precinct basis) of Hillary's score is about 7.8 percentage points.

...

Look at the t value! As you can see, voting method explains a lot better than precinct size.

...

Now let's think a little bit. There could very well be a politically meaningful parameter correlated with voting method besides precinct size. As Diebold has connections with Republicans, it could be that Republicans favor Diebold. Could it be that the Republican to Democrat size ratio explains the voting method?

I'll spare you the R screen dump: the p-value of the correlation coefficient being 0.69, the R to D size ratio doesn't seem to explain anything.

So, after I told Drew that this Continuation guy had hit jackpot, he decided to forward a bunch of these links to the Kucinich campaign to help them with the recount effort. Apparently Drew ended up on the phone with Kucinich, who would really appreciate having a detailed report of the statistical evidence before Monday (US time). And why, oh, why would Kucinich need as watertight as possible a report on so short a notice? Because, as you can see from the PDF press release linked to here
PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY - JANUARY 8, 2008
Results of the Presidential Primary will be posted at the above link after tabulation is complete (Wednesday, January 9, 2008)
Press Release Regarding Republican and Democratic Recounts
the New Hampshire Secretary of State is required to estimate the cost of a full recount, which would have to be paid by Kucinich (at least for the Democratic recount). Kucinich is not exactly swimming in cash, and also he's sticking his neck out on this (he effectively called a full recount on a limb) and has some of his own credibility at stake if the recount ends up confirming the original result.

Here are a bunch of links to other blog posts, media sources and data sources that you are welcome to look at if you are so inclined. I am personally going to go to sleep now and tomorrow I'll run my own set of regressions to try to independently validate the evidence presented here. So, if you have any suggestions on how best to do that, please put them in the comments. And please poke as many holes into this as you can.

reddit [precinct-level data used by Continuation]

BlackBoxVoting Forums 1

BlackBoxVoting Forums 2

CheckTheVotes.com

The Boston Globe [results by town]

BlackBoxVoting Forums 3

New Hampshire Primary: postmortem [hand-counted vs. machine-counted as function of precint size calculator]

list of Accuvote-using NH precints

What the exit polls tell us [Booman Tribune diary by dataguy]

ET comment by Drew J Jones

MSNBC

Bradblog

BlackBoxVoting NH voting tables demographic data by town [excel]

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Have tinfoil hat, will travel.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 11:04:59 PM EST
And all real credit goes to Mig on the analysis, so give it up, people.

No tinfoil hat necessary here, though.  This is pretty obvious.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 11:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd also like to point out:  I was right, damn it.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 11:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Free Image Hosting at allyoucanupload.com

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
by FPS Doug on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you say.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In my opinion, the best evidence of tampering is the perfect match, to within one vote in 170 thousand, of the machine-counted ballots with the hand-counted ballots. To me this suggests that someone waited to have a full hand count and then manipulated the machine count to match the percentages before reversing them. This may have happened in a single large county. Drew mentioned that the machine-counted votes took up to 4 hours longer to be released than the hand-counted votes.

The county-level data are quite noisy when it comes to vote percentages, but somehow magically the statewide vote percentages match to 5 significant figures.

I have a really cheap bridge right here under my bed that you might want to buy...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 11:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This situation reeks of manipulation.

The optical counters 4 hours behind the complete hand count?  That staggers the imagination.

The flip-flop in voting percentages to 5 frickin' digits over the total population!?!  That smells like a calculatory artifact.  Getting a .99999 correlation is exceeding rare in the Social Sciences.  Anyone who can get a .97 is ecstatic and the conclusion is considered bullet proof.  

Somebody in those counties need to get off their ass and file a class action lawsuit to force the SecState to a hand powered recount.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - What happened in New Hampshire?

Optical Scan
Clinton 91,717 52.9507%
Obama 81,495 47.0493%
Total 173,212

Hand Counted
Clinton 20,889 47.0494%
Obama 23,509 52.9506%
Total 44,398

Smoking gun. Or the coincidence of the millennium.

Has anyone posted any of this to the Obama and Clinton campaigns?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 06:33:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama cannot call the recount or he will be skewered as a sore loser by the MSM. It has to be the Clinton campaign that calls for a recount. And the reason has been pointed out downthread. Maybe this was planted by Republicans in order to "discover" it after she gets the nomination.

However, it is possible that the actual ballots were tampered with and that a recount will confirm the results.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe this was planted by Republicans in order to "discover" it after she gets the nomination.

That is very possible. But why make the numbers so bizarre, as if whoever did this thought something like that wouldn't be noticed until several months from now (unless they were incompetent)? Wouldn't they want something that they could disguise for a few months? I'm just thinking/typing out loud.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:35:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact is, this is too close to being statistically insignificant. If instead of fixing the numbers to the last digit you only fix it to +- 7 votes, it drops below 95% confidence in one of the scenarios. In the other you just need to go to +- 13 votes.

The scenarios are: estimate the probabilities from the machine counts and assume the hand counts are a random sample, or vice versa.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus - if this happened, it would have been a Republican scheme. And Republicans are notorious for not being terribly bright when it comes to science.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking whoever did this was bright enough to doctor the data, but not bright enough to doctor it properly.

The easiest way to steal the election is to just reverse the Obama/Clinton counts on a precinct basis. If you do it in every precinct it even gives you plausible deniability - sorry, computer bug! A human error programming the mappings to the database.

But maybe they thought that's easy to reverse and they really want Clinton to win. So they say okay, let's just tamper with the largest county in the state. They could just have reversed the counts and, given statistical noise, the vote percentages would have been similar but to less than 95% confidence. Being a single county, you'd have to go down to precinct level to show all the precincts are switched.

But maybe they thought they needed to eliminate the discrepancy. In statistical parlance, they worried about a one-tailed chi-square test (misfit) but not about a two-tailed chi-square test (misfit or too-good-to-be-true fit).

I mean, it just takes a pocket calculator to get the "correct" vote counts.

Tampering with the count would mean that a recount would give the win to Obama. Tampering with the ballots would confirm the results, possibly with a 200-vote difference from the initial ones.


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:56:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, it is possible that the actual ballots were tampered with and that a recount will confirm the results.

This is actually quite important. I want to pull it out and emphasis it.

How are the ballots secured after an election? Black Box Voting seems to have some serious concerns over this.

"We have no control over the ballot chain of custody and we have learned the pain from the 2004 Nader recount, in which only 11 districts were counted, chosen by a highly questionable person, and then nothing showed up. Now all we hear is how the Nader recount validated the machines."
http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/71260.html

We are for Justice and Mercy, and Truth and Peace, and true Freedom. Edward Burroughs 1659
by edwin on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 09:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ATinNM:
The optical counters 4 hours behind the complete hand count?  That staggers the imagination.
Well, I have to ask Drew to substantiate that with a link :-)

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 10:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This comment by Bev Harris is better:
Black Box Voting : 1-7-08: Silvestro the Cat & New Hampshire Elections
Kicking myself for not tediously taking screen shots of every friggin' municipality in the dumb Googlemap thing. Why can't they just add a table below it?

One noticeable thing on the 59 screen shots I grabbed between 10:45 pm NH time and midnight NH time, is that the ones that had late results (not submitted as of 4 hours after poll closing) -- well, you'd expect them to be hand count locations, right? Nope. Mostly Diebold locations. That's a major red flag to me. How the heck can you not push "print" for four hours??? It normally takes only 30 minutes to wrap things up and print the poll tape when the polls close.

My method was grabbing the municipalities left to right, right to left, starting at the south end of the state and working up. I only got about three rows up. Anyone who has additional time slice information documenting late reporters I'd like to see it.

Late reporters from the first 59 locations I grabbed:

BRENTWOOD - Diebold location - had the Dem results, but no Republican results as of 11:53 pm (polls closed at 7)

CHESTERFIELD - Hand count location - no results as of 11:00 pm

DERRY - Diebold location - no results in as of 11:42 pm

FREMONT - Diebold location - no results in as of 11:48 pm

GREENFIELD - Hand count location - no results in as of 11:52 pm

HAMPTON - Diebold location - results in on time, but I flagged this because every Dem candidate had a result divisible by 5 and for Republicans, Huckabee 217, McCain 1217, Romney 1217, it just looked weird. So much for my statistical capabilities.

HOLLIS - Diebold location - results not in as of 11:54 pm

NEW IPSWICH - Diebold location - results not in as of 10:52 pm

NEWTON - Diebold location - results not in as of 10:58 pm

PELHAM - Diebold location - results not in as of 10:56 pm

TEMPLE - Hand count location - results not in as of 11:26 pm

WINCHESTER - Diebold location - results not in as of 10:46 pm


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
How the heck can you not push "print" for four hours???

Weren't these votes machine-counted, by optically scanning paper ballots, rather than machine-voted?

On the othe hand, I see no correlation with number of tallied votes and late reporting:

Brentwood - 838
Chesterfield - 952
Derry - 5230
Fremont - 742
Greenfield - 368
Hampton - 3974
Hollis - 1923
New Ipswich - 717
Newton - 888
Pelham - 2484
Temple - 395
Winchester - 826

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 01:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By county, separated:

Rockingham:
Brentwood
Derry
Fremont
Hampton
Newton

Hillsborough:
Greenfield
Hollis
New Ipswich
Pelham
Temple

Cheshire:
Chesterfield
Winchester

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 02:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By result, Clinton and Obama percentages:

Brentwood - 39.62%, 36.16%
Chesterfield - 39.46%, 38.52%
Derry - 45.64%, 31.20%
Fremont - 41.78%, 30.73%
Greenfield - 27.45%, 42.93%
Hampton - 42.78%, 32.59%
Hollis - 35.52%, 41.19%
New Ipswich - 38.63%, 29.43%
Newton - 48.42%, 29.17%
Pelham - 50.72%, 29.03%
Temple - 24.56%, 50.38%
Winchester - 48.79%, 28.57%

Not much of a trend.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The sum of these is 43.21% to 33.10%. Looking at absolute numbers, 8356 to 6401.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Significance?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not much I can see. In other words, I don't think the results coming in after 4 hours changed much.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 04:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To me this suggests that someone waited to have a full hand count and then manipulated the machine count to match the percentages before reversing them. This may have happened in a single large county. Drew mentioned that the machine-counted votes took up to 4 hours longer to be released than the hand-counted votes.

No, you have to make a more complex hypothesis. Clinton led throughout the evening as we watched results coming in, so at least the Clinton/Obama swapping had to have been done before.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be really interesting to get precinct-level data including the time at which it was reported.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I add one thing I noticed on election night: during the count, Kucinich's numbers as displayed by New York Times and MSNBC suddenly jumped at the same time Obama's dropped, but a few minutes later, it was back 'to normal'. What happened then?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:11:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember that happening on CNN too as I was flipping channels.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could have been a keying error.

We are for Justice and Mercy, and Truth and Peace, and true Freedom. Edward Burroughs 1659
by edwin on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 09:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But why would anyone with the capability to manipulate the machine counts (and I'm not saying they did or didn't) do it in a way that screams election fraud?  Why simply reverse the percentages?  Are we dealing with the thieves that stole horse rectums?

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 04:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't help.  Wish I could, but Statistical Analysis isn't my gig.

Sorry.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 11:50:15 PM EST
If you can help up tie it all together into a coherent story for the public, that would be greatly appreciated.

What I want to know now is: Why was it rigged?  We know who might benefit.  You could say it was the Clinton campaign, or you could argue that it was the Republicans wanting to run in a race they likely perceive to be easier.  We need to find out the political connections, if any exist, of the higher-ups at LHS, the firm responsible for the machines, and a firm whose leadership has a criminal past and (in some states) present.

Now we need to figure out which of those parties was responsible.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:03:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
groan

You guys would come up with this at 10:15PM!

Let me do a quick hit on Google and see what I can come up with.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:14:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mig and I are ET's resident supernerds.  Of course we would! :D

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm too old for this shit

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:35:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Kucinich pretty much said we had to put together a watertight case in 38 hours, so I stayed up until 4:30 AM.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's dedication for you!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought it would take 45 minutes to write the diary... LOL!

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:55:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha not nerdy enough, only stayed up till three waiting for the story.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 06:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sigh.  And all us Murkans grumbled to ourselves and went to bed.  What's wrong with this picture?

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.
by budr on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 01:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn.  Even a quick hit turned-up Gold.

In last week's program LHS President John Silvestro admitted his staff violated Connecticut security protocols during the 2006 election. Memory cards were swapped by LHS staff members who saw protocols from the State indicating they were not to touch machines.

From here

So you can establish a previous whatchamacallit.


Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good find.  Thanks.

These guys are definitely shady.  Black Box Voting has been all over them.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:28:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And this:

Vote fraud expert Bev Harris has warned that New Hampshire's electronic voting machines are wide open to fraud and that even modestly skilled computer programmers were able to identify key vulnerabilities within ten minutes of assessing them as key Democrat and Republican primaries unfold today.

Harris points out that LHS is a private company that will count over four fifths of the New Hampshire vote with no oversight whatsoever.

    LHS is not subject to public records requirements, as the government is, at least, not in New Hampshire. The control over memory card contents is absolute; when cards malfunction or get lost, LHS brings the replacements.

    Since LHS maintains the machines, repairs the machines, and replaces the machines -- often on Election Day -- when they malfunction, they have intimate access to the chips, sockets, ports, communications devices and other electronic components.

A recent CNN report featured on Lou Dobbs' show highlights just how easy it is to hack a voting machine and change how votes are tallied with just rudimentary programming skills. Experts warn that it takes only a minute for an unsupervised machine to be inserted with a virus and hacked.

Should get in touch with Harri Hursti who has been warning about the fraud potential of Diebold machines and LHS.  He has a company in Finland (!) so maybe somebody 'round here knows someone who knows him.  If he holds a press conference and presents the information you've got instant credibility AND it will get picked-up.

Anyway, this establishes:

  1.  Previous pattern of misbehavior
  2.  Previous warnings of the hack potential
  3.  Statistical Evidence of a hack

which is the (IANAL) the prima facie case of wrongdoing.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ERRATA!  

Hursti has been warning about the Diebold machines but the LHS part is unconfirmed.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:38:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can anyone get in touch with Hurst?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:41:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually...

When I went to the UK Lib Dem conference in September I attended a Lunch "fringe" session on electronic voting organised by the Open Rights Group. I must have the guy's business card somewhere!

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Drew wrote in part:

You could say it was the Clinton campaign, or you could argue that it was the Republicans wanting to run in a race they likely perceive to be easier.

This is actually a nice situation for potential Republican fraudsters: as the more conservative candidate and the candidate less liked by independent voters, Clinton should be both easier to beat and preferable if she actually wins. These two effects tend to oppose one another, giving such a potential fraudster pause; but not this time. Not that I trust Hillary, but given this point and the Republicans' connections to Diebold, I'd expect Republicans as by far the most likely perpetrators.

by Toby Bartels (toby+8190809933@ugcs.caltech.edu) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's my suspicion as well.  Note that my view, from the start, has been that Sens Obama and Edwards are much stronger candidates for the general election than Senator Clinton.

But the simple truth is that we just don't know the answer yet.  We can speculate, and some arguments seems tronger than others, but it needs further investigation.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton should be both easier to beat and preferable if she actually wins

Until now, I didn't believe the first part, but I definitely agreed with the second. But that's no longer the case. One reason I used to think that Clinton would not be easy to defeat was that all of the scandals that could be found, or could be invented, to use against her have already been tried, while we've no idea what they could invent against the others candidates.

But that is no longer the case. There is a new scandal, and that's the New Hampshire election. If people like those at the Election Defense Alliance hadn't done their work, this scandal might well have surfaced after the Democratic convention, and dogged her all the way to the general election, if not beyond (once she had a reputation for election fraud, I can see the Supreme Court inventing yet another law, this time to allow recounts that might work against her).

For that reason, it's essential that she clear this up as soon as possible, and I can see only one way to do this. Clinton should call for a recount herself, and then try to turn it against the Republicans if it turns out to be true. If not, it's critical that she not win the nomination, to then go on and lose the general election. Until today, I was certain that I would vote in February for Edwards, but now I'm seriously thinking of switching to Obama, to help make sure that she does not win the nomination.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:48:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good points.

Whether or not Clinton had anything to do with election fraud (or would ever do so at all) is inconsequential, once Fox and the rest get the scent of a spectacular story  --even one with an indeterminate conclusion. This is just the sort of smart tactic that has emerged from the Rove machine for a long time. Because it relies on an astute instinct for voter psychology and media weaknesses, it's powerful.

Assume for a moment that the statistical case that got Mig's attention and pushed him and Drew into action can be made solid, and explained in a way that the media can sell.

How to get them to do it?

I think this is the great obstacle, and an almost insurmountable one perhaps.

I suggest that, rather than changing your vote, a far  better tactic would be to get on the phone, get on the net, get in your car and show up at the door of EVERY SIGNIFICANT PLAYER IN THE GAME.

The media are going to decide this.

 They can and will ignore Harry Hursti. God knows they did before, for the most part.

drive them crazy.  

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:22:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Assume for a moment that the statistical case that got Mig's attention and pushed him and Drew into action can be made solid, and explained in a way that the media can sell.

On second thoughts, the statistical case may not be that relevant to the point I was making. By the standards of Love Story, Swiftboats, or Saddam's WMDs, the fact that the polls showed Obama winning, while Clinton won in the end is already strong evidence of fraud. That's what we're up against. Like the rest of you, I made the mistake of assuming that facts are what matter here.

On the other hand, I do vaguely remember similar claims being made about her NY Senate victory, so it's just possible that this is yet another made-up scandal that has already been captured by current opinion polls. I would still feel more comfortable, though, if her campaign was doing something to respond to it.


I suggest that, rather than changing your vote, a far  better tactic would be to get on the phone, get on the net, get in your car and show up at the door of EVERY SIGNIFICANT PLAYER IN THE GAME.

I definitely would like to contact her campaign, but I'm trying to think of the best way to do so without being immediately dismissed as yet another person complaining about fraud. Anybody got suggestions for the best way to go about it?

I meant to introduce myself at the end of my previous, first, post, but hit the "Post" button prematurely. As usual, I've been lurking for quite a while, etc.etc.  There was no way for you to know, but I live in Italy now, making showing up at doors and so on rather difficult (I know that "get in your car" is meant metaphorically, but I can't resist the opportunity of bragging that I haven't owned, or even driven, a car for over a decade).

The primary that I'll be voting in will be for delegates for Democrats Abroad. I just learnt that the Italian vote will be on Super Tuesday, so I won't be able to vote in person, and will have to chose between voting by absentee ballot, or over the internet. I'm considering the latter just for the experience, but I am rather dubious about how it will work in practice.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 at 06:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think that we know that there was fraud. There are some red flags that have been raised.

For me, the point is that computers are not the appropriate technology to count votes. There is a reason why right after the election has closed, the ballot box is emptied in front of witnesses from all competing (as well as other interested parties) factions and counted. The system is designed to eliminate the need for trust.

A computer makes the entire process one of trust - after we have so carefully eliminated the need for trust originally.  Why bother watching the election if you can't watch the designing of the computer program that counts the ballots?


We are for Justice and Mercy, and Truth and Peace, and true Freedom. Edward Burroughs 1659

by edwin on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 at 06:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And this about Diebold

Walden O'Dell, then-CEO of Ohio-based Diebold, wrote an invitation to a Bush re-election fundraiser in 2003 stating that he intended to help "Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." Ohio did get counted in the red column the following year, with its result providing the decisive margin of victory for the Republican incumbent.

The uproar over O'Dell's comments, compounded by allegations of voting irregularities in some Ohio precincts in 2004, culminated with his resignation two months ago. Company officials privately acknowledged the impropriety of such partisan remarks by O'Dell, who was also a major donor to Bush's re-election bid.

But Diebold's new CEO, Thomas Swidarski, is also a Republican stalwart. Swidarski was one of about a dozen Diebold executives who helped fund the Bush-Cheney campaign in 2004, with Swidarski himself making the maximum individual contribution of $2000.

Diebold has since barred its top administrators from making political donations. But the Cleveland Plain Dealer reported recently that three Diebold executives not covered by the ban have continued to contribute to GOP candidates in Ohio.

Two groups of investors are meanwhile suing Diebold in federal court on the grounds that the company gave misleading assurances about the security of its voting machines. Those allegedly false claims led to artificial inflation of Diebold's share prices, the lawsuits charge. The disgruntled investors complain that Diebold is "unable to assure the quality and working order of its voting machine products."

Taking note of these developments, The New York Times criticized Diebold's "flawed approach to its business" in a December editorial. "The counting of votes is a public trust," the Times declared. "Diebold, whose machines count many votes, has never acted as if it understood this."



Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:44:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The BlackBox people have piddled into the web info pool.

LHS Associates removed their personnel information from their website so I can't do cross-checking.

BTW, we're already on the first page of Google using the search term ["Silvestro" + "Republican"].  That was pretty quick, huh?

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 01:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd imagine the site will get a lot of traffic over the coming days.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 02:11:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One angle Kucinich could take is challenge LHS to pay for the recall, to prove their system, if they have confidence in it and promise to pay them the recall costs if everything turns out to have been all above board.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:26:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't you google cache the info ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:19:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or use the Wayback Machine.

(Except it doesn't seem to be working.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 09:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Black Box Voting has been pumping information out about LHS for months, apparently and those posts have been picked-up by Google.  Their postings have been linked to by other websites which Google also picked-up.  The result: when you run a web search it's difficult (and time consuming) to get 'behind' the BBV information.

A Lexis/Nexus search - which I can't do - needs to be run, tho' I don't expect much to happen with that, either.

Irregardless of the statistical analysis preliminary evidence indicates LHS Associates and John Silvestro shouldn't be in charge of counting votes to elect the officers of the local Gardening Club.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 11:21:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume you filtered out those results with bbv, blackboxvoting and black in. (although that dosn't cut out those results that don't reference where they got their info from) and only cuts the number of searches down from 122,000 to 110,000

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 11:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

More often than not, however, even tertiary sources link back to BBV.  A common trail is:

BBV <- BradBlog <- 3rd Source

so the search results need to be manually verified and qualified.  On a dial-up ISP that takes a while.

The 3rd Source is a serious problem as some of those Information Sources are not of the highest intellectual quality -- shall I say.  (The phrase "stark raving bonkers" leaps to mind.)

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:18:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ATinNM:
The 3rd Source is a serious problem as some of those Information Sources are not of the highest intellectual quality -- shall I say.  (The phrase "stark raving bonkers" leaps to mind.)

and yet you hang around here... ;-)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 01:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That vote percentage swap is crazy! It's certainly indicative that something is amiss, although I'm not sure how indicative it is of fraud, simply because it's hard to imagine why a fraudster would do it that way. (Much more sensible to simply swap the individual votes in the Diebold districts, not bothering to calculate percentages or create a suspicious coincidence.) But what other explanation is there?

I get most of my news analysis from Counterpunch (not because it's the best but because I'm not motivated to spend the time looking for something better); here are a couple of interesting articles from there:

  • an article by David Lindorff on the possibility of fraud; interesting points:
    • even some people who doubt fraud in this case would like vote counting to be audited;
    • dark-horse candidates are important, since the direct victims of fraud don't want to look like sore losers by demanding a recount;
    • on the basis of demographics, you would expect Hillary to do worse and Obama to do better in the Diebold-counted precincts.
  • an article by Bob Wing and Marqueece Harris-Dawson on the Bradley effect; this is (IMO) the obvious alternative explanation that one would want to test against as a null hypothesis (although obviously one should also try whatever other explanations are seriously proposed).
by Toby Bartels (toby+8190809933@ugcs.caltech.edu) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:23:21 AM EST
No, we haven't really thrown the whole thing together and given the full analysis with the demographic data.  Once you hear The StoryTM, it's painfully obvious what happened, and it probably gets worse, but I'll get to that later.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And, yes, dark horse candidates are critical, as Congressman Kucinich demonstrates.  Senator Obama won't be allowed to call for a recount for fear of being nuked by the press.  He's already being wounded by them in this whole race-baiting thing.  Kucinich knows this, and at least seemed to make it very clear when I spoke with him.

Still, I understand Obama's hesitation, but it deserved more attention than his staff gave it (which was none by the sound of it).  In the big picture, this is a little bigger than a candidate, after all.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:33:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Drew wrote in part:

In the big picture, this is a little bigger than a candidate, after all.

Now, when have you ever known a campaign to put the big picture ahead of the individual candidate? (Well, except for the Kucinich campaign, of course.) ^_^

by Toby Bartels (toby+8190809933@ugcs.caltech.edu) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Clearly the Kucinich campaign, but I don't think the Obama campaign gave it much thought.  Allegedly a few of the universities were not in session, and so they may have assumed their voters simply weren't there on election day.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 12:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That vote percentage swap is crazy! It's certainly indicative that something is amiss, although I'm not sure how indicative it is of fraud, simply because it's hard to imagine why a fraudster would do it that way. (Much more sensible to simply swap the individual votes in the Diebold districts, not bothering to calculate percentages or create a suspicious coincidence.)

Just as an aside, if I may (I get the feeling what I'm about to write has been written several times already, but I barely survived college statistics and pretty much shut down when I see the phrase "statistically significant," so, apologies to anyone who's said this before). If this turns out to be fraud, whoever did it wanted it to be discovered. It's too perfect. Those numbers in the quotes from Brad Blog and Election Defense Alliance, the hand-counted and machine-counted ballots are mirror images?

That's too perfect and if you want to commit fraud, you don't make it so tidy like that unless you're either stupid or you want people to take notice. "Bait" comes to mind. I agree there could have been fraud on the part of people who want HRC to win because they think she'd lose to an R, but it also could have been someone who wanted to make her look like a fool or someone who wanted to see Dems run around, just to see us react and possibly create more discord between the various candidate camps. I don't think I'm adding any great revelation and the numbers could turn out to have a perfectly logical, non-fraud explanation-- but maybe instead of election manipulation, someone's trying to get a rise out of us.

There is also the distant possibility that it could be someone trying to show how optical scan can be manipulated, although this was a really bad time to do it.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:33:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lychee:
There is also the distant possibility that it could be someone trying to show how optical scan can be manipulated, although this was a really bad time to do it.

This is the only one of these options that makes sense. Every time you do something like this you provide more data to prove that something has happened, and once this is proved then the whole scheme goes out of the window, (Plus it ends up with past results being looked at more closely). If this is happening surely this is the last thing you'd want to happen.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 06:53:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If this is happening surely this is the last thing you'd want to happen.

Huh? I'm not quite sure how to interpret that. :)

In terms of what makes sense, reasons for fraud don't necessarily have to be logical. It's quite possible (again, if it's fraud) that someone did this just to mess with the Dems.

You know, as I think more and more about it, I keep coming back to how glaring this is-- really, if someone's going to commit fraud, they'd want to hide it well, not have numbers that make others stop and stare, unless they want people to stop and stare. This may be one of those "agree to disagree" things. :)

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They may just be relying on the only peole stopping and staring are maths and statistics geeks (no offence Mig ;-)) and then assuming that people with those geeky tendencys will not be able to communicate it effectively to the ordinary man in the street and get him to stop and stare.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, it takes too much effort to make the vote counts match in this way.

Maybe New Hampshire just won the lottery, or something.

The probability of the hand count being exactly the most likely value assuming the vote percentages of the machine count are "correct" is smaller than 1 in 250 given the sample size. Now, if you run 50 primary contests, what is the likelihood that at least one will be this "lucky"? Actually 1 in 6.

So something of this sort should be expected to happen ever 24 years :-)

[there are several assumptions in this which overestimate the probability of occurrence. For example: assuming the "correct" probabilities are the hand-counted ones and the machine-counted ones are the ones drawn randomly from the distribution, this is less likely than 1 in 500 and assuming 50 primaries every 4 years it would be a 44-year event].

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:36:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In case it's not clear from my (long) comment below, I don't believe the data or calculations yielding the "exact match" percentages are reliable.  Their numbers don't match the NH Secretary of State's numbers, so the percentages they talk about are meaningless.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:09:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In another comment I point out that a 7 to 13-vote difference would render the coincidence statistically insignificant. So there goes that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:38:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've emailed the basic storyline to Congressman Kucinich, but any and all additional analysis is fantastic and will be forwarded.  Let's hope we can fix this.

I do want to thank to TBG -- and, by extension, soros -- for bringing this to our attention, as well as Mig for really working his ass off and shining a ton of much-needed light on all of this for me.  You're both Godsends.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 02:30:24 AM EST
Oh, and ATinNM, of course, for some really great leads on LHS and Diebold.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 02:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This from the Booman Tribune thread.
bento:
The published exit polls are normalized to match the official tallies, so they are not generally valid for checking those tallies, those if micro discrepancies survive macro adjustment, that would be interesting. However, both Chris Matthews and Bill Maher have stated that the unaltered polls showed Obama strongly ahead. Deeply suspicious in itself, independent of other factors. Like I said in the other thread, if we could just get the media to release raw exit poll data by precinct, we could correlate with counting method ourselves. But I doubt we could do that outside of court, and whether it is possible in court is beyond my knowledge.


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 05:54:22 AM EST
How did the Republican votes go between the hand counted and machine counted counties?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:04:42 AM EST
It appears there are allegations that Ron Paul had votes stolen. By the way, Ron Paul Recount: Count My Vote

Gardner is preparing an estimate of the recount's cost.

Under state law, if a candidate who asks for a recount finished more than 3 percentage points behind the winner, the candidate must pay the cost of a recount. The cost is refunded if the recount finds that the requester won or finished within 1 percentage point of the winner.

Kucinich sent a letter to Gardner Thursday asking for the recount, citing "serious and credible reports, allegations and rumors" about the integrity of the primary results.

In other words, Kucinich will have to pay for the Democratic recount no matter what, even if irregularities are uncovered.

The Republican Recount is being called by Albert Howard.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:12:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Ron Paul site indicates that New Hampshire has alrady agreed to Dennis K.'s request for a recount and that it will commence on Jan. 16th.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read the press release from the Secretary of State.

Apparently there's a $2,000 application fee to get the SoS to consider a recount. Then they have to estimate the cost of the recount and it would have to be paid by Kucinich. We're probably talking of the order of $100k.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 07:44:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Apparently there's a $2,000 application fee to get the SoS to consider a recount.

can he say no?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"consider" means to evaluate the cost of carrying it out. The SoS has said that both recount requests satisfied the statutory requirements.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Comments - What happened in New Hampshire?
My initial suggestion was to compare the actual vote counts by hand vs. by machine against the exit polls, if an exit poll could be found that aggregated the data according to the vote counting method used in the precinct where the voter was interviewed. Of course this variable was not in the published exit polls. In my enthusiasm I imagined someone in the blogosphere knowing someone in one of the companies that do exit polls, so they could try to get the raw data from election night re-analysed. But see below.

Don't the candidates have private polling? Might  Kuchinch have the data thatis needed? or might he have the connections with people in Obamas campaign to get this taken seriously and so get their polling data released to us? OK there might be contractual reasons why this can